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Current rating: 4.8 (9 ratings)
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Ingo Breuer
It is sad how you as a Catholic reject the Bible by manufacturing the claim that biblical fundamentalism is a heresy. You basically are guily of blaspheming the word of God which is inspired of the very God whom you try to preach. Can you call yourself a Christian at all when you mock the Bible in your article and refuse to take it serious?
5/25/2009 6:11:03 AM
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Ann Jean
Thank you Father Barron, having recently ventured into the world of internet blogging, I was shocked puzzled and confused by the majority of responses to any news story regarding the Catholic Church. This neat summary of the mindsets I came across helps me to understand the hostility and realize it's shallowness.
5/29/2009 11:11:21 PM
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Joe Holland
Way to go Father Barron. Don't give up hope! You are making a difference even if it appears otherwise. People out there are listening and talking. God will enter if we form a crack in the secular, self serving, dead end culture that has so strongly taken hold of today's youth.
6/3/2009 6:47:26 PM
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JimmyMaq
I'm not a Catholic, I'm a Confessional Lutheran, but I find your videos very educational and this article is the best I've ever read on the subject. I don't know if you've ever visited the social news Web site Reddit.com, but it is overrun with atheists who have no concept of historic atheist philosophy. Your comments above are a powerful antidote to their vitriol. Thank you.
6/4/2009 11:25:20 AM
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Whiskey and Gunpowder
I have to agree with Ingo. Arguing against biblical fundamentalism (especially as heresy!) is essential to a denomination of the faith that by practice and preaching defies many specific teachings of the text.

How ironic that you set out to defend the faith at the same time you undermine the word.
It is simply poor scholarship to declare that one should not take the word literally but I guess that's why I am an Evangelical instead of a Catholic.

I believe that God's word is sufficient and that I don't require "special" explanations to understand things like "indulgences".

You will never truly be successful refuting Atheists when you don't trust the supporting literature of your faith. If there are heresies to discuss, we could start with a LOT of the "fundamentals" of Catholicism.
6/4/2009 1:08:52 PM
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Ann Jean
Whiskey and Gunpowder,are you an Evangelical because one day you picked up the Bible read it through, and independently arrived at your present day beliefs? Why don't Fundamentalists take literally John 6:51-52 as one of many Scripture verses that speak of the Real Presence, Jesus flesh and blood in the Eucharist? And why, after the Protestant Reformation have there been thousands of Christian churches formed that don't agree with one another on doctrine?

I am not pretending to be a biblical scholar, having discovered the truth on my own with my own personal instruction of the Holy Spirit. Rather I rely on the Lord's promise to be with his Church until the end of time.
I have faith in that guarantee of the Holy Spirit first given 2,000 years ago. And in spite of the weakness of men, has remained unbroken in One Holy and Apostolic Church.

From reading your post, I am guessing that you have never listened to Fr. Baron's homilies on Scripture. Give it a listen, there you will find rich food for your soul.
6/4/2009 7:37:01 PM
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Whiskey and Gunpowder
No I picked up a bible and read it through a few times, got a few dozen commentaries on various topics from various sources and took to heart the idea of being like the Bereans and searching the scriptures daily to see if these things are so [Acts 17:11] and came to my own conclusions based on informed research and prayer. THEN I discovered that my understanding of the word led me towards a strikingly evangelical dispensational philosophy.

I don't adhere to the idea of "transubstantiation" - that is the "Real presence of Jesus blood and flesh in the Eucharist" because Jesus didn't say "every time you do this this is me" he said "do this in REMEMBRANCE of me" and was specifically referring to a segment of the Jewish Passover ritual which involves the bread and the wine that they were participating in and was prophetic of his sacrifice.

You are right you are not a biblical scholar, if you were you'd have a lot of problems with "transubstantiation" and the idol worship it implies as well. You'd realize that confession is made to our one high Priest Jesus and a lot of other things that can't possibly be expanded on in such a limited space.

Thousands of Protestant Churches agree on one core thing, that we are saved by faith alone, in Christ alone and that the word of God is complete and sufficient. That is something that the Catholic church will never agree with.

I invite you to do some homework as you are told by your Lord Jesus to do.

John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
6/5/2009 10:35:35 AM
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Ann Jean
W & G, This doesn’t sound like you arrived at your faith by “Scripture Alone”. Rather you sought out the writings of other men who you believed to have knowledge and expertise of Scripture and the age in which they were written.

The Beroeans searched the Scripture that we call the Old Testament. As devout Jews they would have already been immersed in Scripture. Yet what did they measure their understanding of Scripture against? Certainly not what we call the New Testament, it hadn’t been written and compiled yet, that wouldn’t happen for another 400 years. They were searching the Scriptures in the light of what the Church was teaching. The same Church that we have today.

The prophetic sacrifice of Passover does not point to merely another symbol, it points to a realty, the Body and Blood of our Lord, in which we are all called to share. John 6:54 “ Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.” One verse of many where Jesus instructs us to literally eat his flesh. Yes,if it was merely a symbol, we would be guilty of idol worship, but it’s a reality.

John 20:23 “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” What is your understanding of this verse?

The doctrine of Faith Alone is the primary error of thousands of Protestant Churches. Please tell me how this doctrine fits with Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory....he will separate...the sheep from the goats.....Come you who are blessed by my Father...for I was hungry and you gave me food....”
Also James 2:17 “So also faith of itself,if it does not have works, Is dead.”
6/5/2009 8:47:05 PM
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Whiskey and Gunpowder
quote: Ann Jean
"The prophetic sacrifice of Passover does not point to merely another symbol, it points to a realty, the Body and Blood of our Lord, in which we are all called to share. John 6:54 “ Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.” One verse of many where Jesus instructs us to literally eat his flesh. Yes,if it was merely a symbol, we would be guilty of idol worship, but it’s a reality."

Why was the brass serpent destroyed? Because it became an idol to be worshipped. The intent of the brass serpent on a pole was to prophetically point to Christ's sufficient atoning sacrifice but men and women turned it into a thing with its own godly power. We have done the same with the bread and the wine. The bread and the wine were part of the passover service long before Christ walked amongst us, they are prophetic of his broken body and his spilt blood and we have turned them into idols. "Do this in remembrance of me", he was talking about the whole passover ritual.

quote: Ann Jean
"John 20:23 “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” What is your understanding of this verse?"

The apostles are dead and with the Lord, only the Catholic church still claims to be stuffed with apostles with special power over sin. The veil was torn in two, Jesus is our high priest, confession is made to God not men. Only God knows the hearts of us all, what man can forgive sins when he cannot know the truth of a person's confession?

quote: Ann Jean
"The doctrine of Faith Alone is the primary error of thousands of Protestant Churches."

The argument is as old as the Reformation itself, but let the word of God defend it.
Hab 2:4 ... but the just shall live by his faith.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith...
So I guess I am saying those Justified by God shall live by faith (loving trust) in God not by man.
This argument is the foundation of thousands of books and many dead at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church. We won't settle it here. Nobody can take me from his hand for I am in Christ.

quote: Ann Jean
"Please tell me how this doctrine fits with Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory....he will separate...the sheep from the goats.....Come you who are blessed by my Father...for I was hungry and you gave me food....”

I haven't got a clue what you mean

quote: Ann Jean
"Also James 2:17 “So also faith of itself,if it does not have works, Is dead.”"
Not that I'm arguing but what again does that have to do with the Reformation or the concept of Justification by Faith alone?
6/6/2009 1:50:38 AM
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Ann Jean
W&G, What do you understand Jesus to mean when he instructs us to “eat his flesh”. You can’t say it’s metaphorical, because the figurative meaning of “eating” anothers flesh, in that culture, was to revile and destroy one’s enemy. The disciples who left him that day took literally what he was saying and they thought he’d gone mad. Why would he not call them back to explain what he “really” meant as he does in MK 8:14-21. And in Cor 11:27 "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord." Paul is exhorting the Church to honor the bread and wine as the body and blood of our Lord. If it is only a symbol then Paul is exhorting us to idol worship.

Why would Jesus give Peter authority as his steward on earth-Matt 16:19, and the apostles the power to forgive sins-John 20:23-only for that generation only? There was no collected record of the New Testament at the death of the last apostle. How did anyone find salvation up until the canon of the Bible was established in the late 4th century? (Not to mention the invention of the printing press another 1000 years later) And by what authority was this canon established if there was no Apostolic succession guided by the Holy Spirit? What conqueror does not plan for the long term stewardship of the lands he has conquered?

Once more, how do you interpret Matt 25:31-46? Where Jesus is clearly stating that if you don’t perform “works” you will not be “saved”? What do you think it means?

and quote W&G

“quote: Ann Jean
"Also James 2:17 “So also faith of itself,if it does not have works, Is dead.”"
Not that I'm arguing but what again does that have to do with the Reformation or the concept of Justification by Faith alone?”

Same question as above, if this does not state that faith alone is not enough, what does it mean?

And concerning your reference to”thousands of books” (another reference to outside sources? ) There are writings dating back to the early Church that say differently. And please provide me with historical dates, numbers and references re the “many” dead at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church. There has been a great deal of anti Catholic propaganda put forth as fact during the past century and longer. Yes, there is much in our history to be ashamed of, but there is also a great deal of good that has far outweighed the bad. And history seems to indicate that most people fleeing religious persecution in the last few centuries were fleeing from protestant countries.
6/6/2009 6:01:30 PM
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Antimarx
Father Robert, touche...!

You've boiled the "objections" of the youngin's (and the developmentally arrested) quite well. The old heresies never die, any more than their sponsor (that ancient deceiver fellow) does.

Scientism is merely dressed up (materialistic) gnosticism.

Ecclesial Angelism is merely libertine hedonism in reverse.

Biblical Fundamentalism is hyper-legalism (pharisaicism?).

Marcionism is dualism (plus some gnosticism).

The truth's basic opponents are always:

*) "I believe only what I want to see."
*) "I do whatever I want to do."
*) "I obey only what I want to obey."
*) "I call good what I want to call good."

..in other words, they ALL boil down to a obedience or revolt against authority,.. which is THE defining characteristic of "the young and the stunted".

:)
6/10/2009 10:00:11 PM
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alcott
Hi everyone. Ann Jean, let me say thanks. I grew up attending evangical churches and I can tell you from first hand experience many of them in there are lost. I love the Catholic church and I am so glad that I converted. I stumpled across Father Barron DVD and I am so glad. He is a man of God and is spreading the truth. I just love him. Keep up the good work Father. Whiskey and Gunpowder I was like you that is until I got cancer. They say cancer lays you on your back so that you can think. Well it did actually that for me. I do not wish you any bad luck but I do pray that your eyes will be open to your fellow evangelicals. Just get sick or even better just stop putting in your offering envelope.
6/11/2009 2:10:14 PM
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Miro Firlej
God Bless Fr Baron for teaching the truth!
Thanks Ann Jean,I can't type to respond to this whisky guy...he's so confused,let's all pray for him and all seperated brethern...
6/13/2009 10:26:29 PM
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Christian Rink
Sir, you said in the above paragraphs, "Just as one would not take "the library” literally, one should not interpret the whole Bible with one set of lenses."

If you are truly Born Again and filled with the Holy Spirit, then all you need is one set of lenses! The Holy Spirit is the comforter and guider of all truth, what other lense could you possibly want to use when reading and understand God's Word?

You are a very intellectual man, most Roman priests are, but you are lacking the Holy Spirit, all Roman priests do!

I never knew the amount of spiritual oppression that I was under while being a Catholic. Until I stopped going to their masses and started calling on the Name of Lord until God's Grace touched my heart and forgave all of my sins. Hallelujah, Jesus Is Lord!

We are living in the feet era of Daniel 2:33, and you are a promoter of it but you do not realize.

The City on 7 Hills will be destroyed :) Hallelujah! Come Lord Jesus

Ancient Gentile Pagan Rome lives on through The Roman Catholic Church.


Luk 21:24 "They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, just like the people in Scripture, is still possible today. He is not a religion or an idol.

Emporer Constantine is your first pope!

I am not trying to hurt you, but truth comes out that way because it goes against what was instilled into your being, most likely as a child. Just like me! Are you too, like Clint Eastwood, one of the many people on this earth whose name is not written in the book of life? Revelation 17:8

I was included in the multitude.

Sorry for the sporadic comments, I haven't spoken to a Roman priest for some time. I get a little overwhelmed with thoughts :)
6/18/2009 12:53:07 PM
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Sherry
christian rink, how is it that you can say that all roman priest lack the holy spirit? how can you say that about any body? only God knows the heart. Only he can save. Only he can and will judge. The Catholic priest that I know do have a personal relationship with Christ. The Evangelical ones I know do not. As do many of the so called christians that profess to be evanelicals.

You tell Father that he is a very intellectual man too bad you are not.

Read the last paragraph of the article above. As for taking the bible literally I grew up with a baptist Grandfather who was a minister and a great father who was a baptist minister and I come from a very Christian family and they have always told me never take the bible Literally. Many of the evangeicals I know say they do but they do not. They just use the parts that suit them. They tend to want to tell everyone how to live. You do not know what God wants from or for another person. Too often I hear people say God does not want you to do one thing or another then when things go wrong they do not want to take responsiblity. I will tell you leaving the Catholic church was the worst thing you could have done. That is my personal view but I can not tell you to go back.

In this society today we are taught that we can do it all my ourselves even when it comes to serving God and we can not. We can not. Just listen tot he mind washing that you are being told. They do this to keep you away from the truth. They have to do that to control you. I would rather have a intellectual man that I can talkl with than one trying to control me or is afraid that if he lets me go I will discover the truth.
6/18/2009 2:50:19 PM
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Ann Jean
Don’t be disheartened by the “Jack Chick” ranting of Christian Rink. He may just be an internet troll. Or he may indeed be a fallen away Catholic who has been hurt by the Church. That hurtful experience of the Church could have been through his family, a teacher or a priest or nun. Whatever it was, if his post is genuine, it still stirs the passions of unforgiving anger in his heart and tempts him to the sin of pride as he judges and condemns others. There will be many in Church who will have to answer for the poor catechesis that has been inflicted upon a whole generation, leaving them ignorant of the true beauty and richness of Christ’s Bride, the Church. Posts like these spur me on to immerse myself more deeply in the Word, and draw more closely to our Lord through those precious gifts He left us in the Sacraments of Penance and Holy Communion.

Antimarx, great summary.

alcott and Sherry, welcome home

Miro Firlej, great advice

And let us all continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
6/18/2009 9:19:55 PM
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Mark
Imagine we're standing on that hill in Bethany. Jesus rose from the dead 7 or 8 weeks ago. He's called us out here. He's saying His good-byes, giving His last instructions. And "poof," up into the sky, and He's gone. The two men in white appear and, suddenly, it's all over.

Then, over the hill, there comes a shepherd leading his flock. He's just emigrated from Syria. He walks up to us, wanting to know what's happened. What was the "poof" in the sky? You and I explain it to him, how Jesus came, how He lived, how He suffered, died, was buried and rose, and here's the last things He said before returning Home. And we tell him how Jesus had the words of eternal life, how He promised we could live forever with Him after we die.

And the emigrant asks us those key quesions: What exactly must I do to inherit eternal life? How must I live? What must I believe?

Our choices are few. We can stammer around and do our best to recall everything Jesus said and did. But, man, we weren't there for every single bit of it, and you know we'd get something wrong.

We can't tell him to wait right here until we bring back the Bible, because not a word of the NT is even written yet and it's another 350 years or so before the canon is agreed upon. Even the OT is still mostly only in Hebrew, and in another 70 years or so it'll have 7 fewer books than it does at the moment.

We can't tell him to say a magic prayer, because there's isn't one.

But look, maybe we could hook him up with Peter, James and John and the rest of the boys over there at the crest of the hill. I bet they'd know what do with him.

Well, they did then and they still do now. Thank God for His Son, His Catholic Church, His Apostles and their successors. Thank God nobody has to depend on me to be the arbitrator of truth.

God bless you Father Barron; bless your ministry, bless those who are touched by it, bless those who rebel against it.

As for me, I choose to serve my King in humility. I have no answers. I have only love for my King. He will lead.
May He be praised forever and ever. Amen
6/28/2009 8:02:41 PM
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Whiskey and Gunpowder
Ann Jean
Same question as above, if this does not state that faith alone is not enough, what does it mean?
Luk 23:41-43 “…And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.” And he said unto Jesus, “Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.

Before I spend hours debating your last response tell me, what did the criminal do to earn his salvation?
6/28/2009 10:35:46 PM
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Ann Jean
Whiskey and Gunpowder, it is good to hear from you again.
First let me clarify your misconception, we don’t believe that there is anything we do to “earn” salvation but we do believe there is plenty you can do or fail to do to lose that salvation.
Don’t you think the good thief is performing a “work” when he rebukes the other thief and accepts his cross. Mt 16, 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.” And besides, like the landowner in Mt. 20,1-16 the Lord can be generous as he pleases.
Do you believe once you are “Saved’ you’ve got the golden ticket that you can never lose no matter what you do?
6/30/2009 8:51:14 PM
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Whiskey and Gunpowder
Quoting Jesus Christ:
Jhn 10:27-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one."

and here is the Apostle Paul:
Eph 2:8f "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

You cannot loose your salvation, you never deserved it, you can't earn it, it doesn't belong to you, you are Christ's property bought with a price. If you could do something to loose it than it would not depend totally on Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.
How many of your sins were future when Jesus hung on the cross? ALL OF THEM. Which one didn't he die for that will send you to hell after you have received the gift of grace? NONE!
The idea that you can loose your salvation is a heresy. When James speaks of faith being dead he means it is without value if it is not acted apon externally. This has nothing to do with salvation. When Jesus says "depart from me" he follows by saying "I never knew you". He knows me though and if you have trusted him for your salvation than he knows you.

Rom 8:35-39 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Your heretical belief in lost salvation does not compel me to fear, perfect love casts out fear and I am "in Christ" and in his perfect love. I hope you will find the place where you learn to trust God and not in your ability or the RCC's ability to save you and keep you saved. Faith alone in Christ alone. God Bless.
7/1/2009 10:32:25 PM
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Denys
Whiskey and Gunpowder-

This seems an unlikely forum in which to persuade folks that the "RCC"is the big bad wolf.

Proceed as you wish, but as a casual observer I would say that I don't find much in your posts that pull me in.
7/1/2009 11:11:33 PM
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Ann Jean
Whiskey and Gunpowder, You've contradicted yourself at least twice, -"You cannot loose your salvation, you never deserved it, you can't earn it, it doesn't belong to you," Salvation is a free gift, it does belong to me and like any other gift if I don't take care of it I risk losing it.
And then you go on to say "When James speaks of faith being dead he means it is without value if it is not acted apon externally. This has nothing to do with salvation" Our discussion is about what value works have in our salvation and now your saying that faith has no value either.
Catholics have no problem reconciling the scriptures you have quoted with the ones I have asked you about in earlier posts. But you do, they don’t fit with what you have been taught about salvation so you ignore it. You choose what you want to believe literally from Scripture and ignore that which doesn’t fit. And as a defense you toss out Evangelical cliché’s as if they were magic incantations to ward off the evil RCC. Why not study the true teachings of the Catholic Church, instead of believing what others have told you about the Church. You have accepted many doctrines of the Church and use the Scriptures that the Church protected and preserved for all. Why not look a little deeper if for nothing than to truly understand what it is you are rejecting. For starters, check out scripturecatholic.com.
7/3/2009 9:39:20 AM
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Whiskey and Gunpowder
Denys said:
Whiskey and Gunpowder-
This seems an unlikely forum in which to persuade folks that the "RCC"is the big bad wolf.

Proceed as you wish, but as a casual observer I would say that I don't find much in your posts that pull me in."

Ya know I'm really not trying to. If you read the whole thread it is clear I am responding to the idea that biblical fundamentalist idea of scripture alone is "heretical". Disagree, sure, heresy? Just as much "heresy" can be found in the RCC, which remains my point. Hey, do you remember when they excommunicated Hitler? I can't find any reference to it anywhere........
7/3/2009 2:28:51 PM
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Evary
Thanks to all the debaters but especially to Ann Jean for keeping a cool head.

I have been researching in the teachings of the Evangelical Fundamentalists for the past 4 years. What I have found out are two basic things, which I see featuring here in the debate: 1) Once their leaders convince them about something, they don't want to listen to an opposite view and 2) They will accommodate a contradiction so long as they can keep their first position.

In regard to 2) above in particular, why would somebody insist on the literal interpretation of every word in the Bible and yet refuse to accept the literal interpretation of some words? Explicitly, why would somebody regard Jesus' and Paul's words regarding the real presence of the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist to be metaphorical and still believe in the Bible being wholly literal? Let's be more flexible and get out of our self-imposed contradictions.
7/12/2009 12:03:53 AM
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Larry McCallister
I have a couple of questions concerning the biblical fundamentalism mention. Am I reading correctly that the Father goes no further than insist that each part of Scripture must be interpreted according to its genre? For example, one would see Proverbs as wisdom literature, Romans as epistolary and the Apocalypse as apocalyptic literature and interpret according to the various rules of each genre. If that is all he is saying then I agree with him.

However, he mentioned, "It was in this light [of reading the OT afresh due to Christ's coming] that Origen, for example, read the texts concerning the Old Testament ban as an allegory about the struggle against sin."

Is the Father suggesting that Origen believed the cherem ban ("devoted to destruction" ESV) didn't actually happen but was simply an allegory? Or is the Father positing that Origen knew it actually happened (i.e. past history) but the Church Father added a further allegorical teaching to the actual historical occurrence?

More importantly, in my mind, does the Father believe the cherem ban really happened (i.e. past history) whether or not he believes one legitimately may add an allegorical teaching to the historical occurence in light of Christ?

Did not John Paul II take a very dim view of Origen? If memory serves the Holy Father called him a heretic.

Thanks!
Larry
7/17/2009 10:20:21 PM
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Ken
Ann Jean - Faith without works is dead. If you have faith the Fruit would be there. Just because there are works does not mean there is salvation. And yes you can lose your salvation, there are not only the ones you pointed out but jesus said how it was possible to blot names out of the Book of Life. There are many flaws in many Churches many of doctrine and teaching - and of course there are many that are really far off the truth of Gods Word. Praying to "saints" and to Mary - is not Biblical. Abstaining from meats and forbidding to marry - Paul preached that there would come false doctrines teaching such things. [BTW fish is not Meat.. ;-) ] Of course neither are Hotdogs.. What think you on Christ ?
8/26/2009 1:12:59 AM
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John
Ann Jean
You have more wisdom and understanding than W&G and all of his supporters combined. God bless you for maintaining a cool head while having to reply to the same tired old heretical views that the Catholic Church has had to endure for centuries, views from people that have collectively turned their backs on our Blessed Virgin.

I hope everyone takes a few minutes to remember that young Jewish girl that made Christmas possible when she said yes.

John
12/9/2009 9:02:01 PM
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Barbara
Fr. Barron--I am finding your site very difficult. However, I watched Pt. 1 of Dawkins & Hitchens. Father, I know you are a Defender of the Faith as am I. However, you have made things way too complicated. Atheists and their books are truly against Our Lord. But, He did die on the cross for them also. We must persevere in prayer for those who simply do not have faith in Christ Our Lord or any god. They are wayward souls with free wills and responsible for all souls they poison with their words. I pray that they will receive the gift of faith if it be God's will. God does use evil as well as good. God bless you Father Barron
12/10/2009 6:59:24 PM
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Ann Jean
Ken, do others ever ask you to pray for them, do you do the same? The Apostles prayed for the Church and asked the Church to pray for them. Just as the power of our prayer is increased when 2 or more are gathered in His name, how much more that power must be increased when we call upon those who now see the face of God, to pray with us. We don't believe that our participation in the life of the Church ends with our mortal death ,rather it becomes perfected. And our labors for The Kingdom have only just begun.
The prohibition against eating meat on Friday (although now this is specified only during Lent and we are to observe some form of penance on Fridays during the remainder of the year) and the prohibition against married priests (here again we do have married priests in the Eastern Traditions and converts from the Episcopalian Church with special dispensation) is not a Church “doctrine” as you seem to imply. The Church has never taught that eating meat on Friday or married men as priests are intrinsically evil but they are obligations and traditions imposed on us by the wise and lawful authority given to the Church by Jesus Christ Himself. It is in defying this authority that we sin.

Thank you John for your blessing. The Church is full of Wisdom and beauty and I give thanks for people like W&G and Ken. Questions and challenges can bring about a deeper understanding when we seek the answers, prayerfully, in Scripture and the teachings of the Church. I think that is how the early Church came to define more clearly the Doctrines it holds, by answering misunderstandings and misinterpretations and refuting the many false teachings and strange doctrines that arose in that time and still do today.

The Lord has remained faithful to His New Covenant, even as we the people of that Covenant have been foolish, weak and sinful.
How truly blessed we are. And we have just had the honor of celebrating the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. That humble Jewish maiden who God saw fit to preserve as a stainless pure vessel in which to bring His Son into the world.

May the peace of Christ be with you in this holy season.

p.s Ken you may have a point on hotdogs and perhaps Mc D burgers shouldn't qualify as meat either. ;-)
12/10/2009 9:29:19 PM
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Ken
Ann Jean.
Where in the Bible do you find this: "but they are obligations and traditions imposed on us by the wise and lawful authority" - when Jesus himself declared by your traditions you have made the word of God of none effect. And further you write now it is only specified during lent (so God changed his mind ?) Or was the "Wise and Lawful authority" not so wise before and now the priests today are more wise than those of old ?
You wrote some priests are married from Eastern Traditions and Converts from the Episcopal Church - with "special dispensation" so why lay the burden on mens backs. Where is it biblically stated or why does it have to be "special dispensation" is that a Catholic Ordinance or a Biblical Ordinance ? Or shall we say then that the Church has its rules and ordinances on top of the word of God that can go against the teachings of the Word of God ? - after all the office of a Bishop he should be the husband of one wife (Bible)..
As for praying to the saints - you declare it as praying with the saints.. [I won't argue the point that they are alive and not dead - for this part is certainly true.]
I never saw Jesus describe to Peter, James or John, nor did I see Paul describe it that we seek any but God in heaven and request of him - and ask in the name of Jesus. No where did any say to ask of them or pray with them or to them after they were gone or to ask King David or Abraham or any other Saints of God - but to pray one for another and one with another. Can you show me anywhere it is in the Bible to pray to Peter, James, John or even to seek them to pray with us.. I do know that we should behold the face of God and our angels should behold his face such as the little child whose angels always beheld the face of God. And whom Jesus said heard them ..
As for a form of Penance on Fridays.. I have nothing to say against any trying to get right with God - but rituals and traditions are not the answer - as it is written with the heart that a man believeth unto salvation - rend your heart.. If one is truly sorrowful and penant - don't do it again and not just on Friday- but every day. If you hit me in the face and feel sorry- then why did you hit me the second time. And it should not be only on friday. A church ordinance - not scripture.
As for forgiveness of sins - the scripture verse you pointed out you use it in reference to the priests - but Jesus was talking to all men everywhere who believed the Gospel - was he not ??
12/15/2009 8:44:21 AM
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Ann Jean
Ken,where in the Bible does Jesus instruct the Apostles to write 27 books/letters? And where in the Bible are these books listed?
12/15/2009 5:48:57 PM
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Ken
Where he commanded them to go preach and teach the Gospel to all men..(or have you not read that?) the books as you refer to are written diaries of events given for our learning about the life of Jesus , the early church and about the conversion of Paul. The letters are given for instruction and reproof and have no need that any man add to it or take away from; the letters and books (diaries) were inspired by God and actuallly we do not know how many other letters they wrote if any. Jesus said by two or more witnesses let every word be established - has he not done that with the "diaries" of the Gospel , and the Early Church [Matthew, Mark, Luke , John, Acts ] As for teaching all the world - the letters to the church do this as well. What would you know about the early church and the new testament - if it was not written to teach you - how would they have done it?
Nowhere does it say there would be "27" where do we get the other works in the Old Testament from and why were they written - for that matter where is it that God instructed that those books all be written and why are they included in the "Bible"; for your learning for you to read - Jesus himself read the book of Isaiah aloud in the synagogue did he not? Who said it was to be included in the torah of the day. Further Jesus asked a man what he read in the word and the man said to love the Lord ... further Jesus quoted King David .. who said this from King David was to be recorded and written down. How would you know anything at all if it wasn't recorded. You can not add to the foundation that was already layed, nor should any take away from it.
None of those books go against the other..no not one.. Yet where is your answer to my questions about that wise and lawful authority in regards to meatless fridays and penance the rest of the year - who found the earlier wise ones to not be so wise and decided to change it.. And yet you say it is not forbidden to marry - yet soemone needs a special dispensation to be married .. Why such a need for special dispensation at all if they are not forbidden to marry.. why is it ? Is it an Ordinance of the Church and not supported Biblically ..as in the fact that aa Bishop should be the husband of one wife. Where do you get the rosary beads from - Bhuddism ..
12/16/2009 10:44:49 AM
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Ann Jean
Yes, I have read that our Lord commanded his disciples to preach and teach the Gospel. I don’t see where it says they are instructed to write it down. If that were the case, then most of the original 12 failed to obey as only 5 of them have writings attributed to them. I have also read that all the books in the world could not contain all that Jesus did. St. Paul commanded the Corinthians to hold fast to the traditions that he handed on to them.

How would you know what the Bible is if the Church had not discerned the inspired writings, preserved them and formed them into one book we now call the New Testament some 3&1/2 centuries after Jesus’ death on the cross? And the Church also commissioned St. Jerome to translate the writings into Latin and it is from this translation that the King James bible was translated. You are reading a very Catholic book.

A foundation is precisely for the purpose of building on. Remember- Peter, you are Rock...the gates of hell shall not prevail... whatever you hold bound...and all that stuff? That’s where the authority of the Church comes from and the wisdom is of the Holy Spirit. The Church does not forbid marriage, it holds marriage as a sacred covenant, highly exalted. Celibacy is a choice freely made by a man entering the priesthood as Jesus himself said, for the sake of the Kingdom.

Many religious cultures have and still use prayer beads as a tool. But I hardly think that a Buddhist is using them to contemplate the life of Christ in Holy Scripture, if he is, then he is praying the rosary.
12/17/2009 8:59:28 PM
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John
Ann Jean,
Merry Christmas to you and to Father Barron, and to all men of good will.

At this beautiful time of year it still saddens me that those fallen Catholics that so loudly boast of being the new Christians can't lovingly recite those words that were said to the "virgin" Mary by the Father's own messenger in Luke 1:28:

"Hail [Mary], full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

Followed by the words said Elizabeth, by the mother of John the Baptist, in Luke 1:42:

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb [Jesus]."

Or remember how that young Jewish girl so humbly said in Luke 1:47-48:

"My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

Unless they are Protestants?

I've never heard any Protestant say those Biblical words or call Mary "Blessed", not even my own earthly father, a traditional Methodist, a wonderful man of faith, or his brother John, my beloved uncle, a Methodist minister.

As was put so well in the movie "A Man for All Seasons" when the actor playing Saint Thomas Moore said to a fallen Catholic, "We must just pray that when your head's finished turning, your face is to the front again."

John
12/18/2009 7:44:19 PM
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Ken
Again Ann Jean you have still failed to answer my question regarding the Wise and Lawful Authority that found the earlier "Wise and Lawful Authority" to not be so wise - where in they no longer have those meatless Fridays - every Friday. As for Celibacy - There are Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Gods sake. But here again - Jesus did not call Peter the Rock. If you read the verse in MTTHW 16:16-16:18 - you will find Peter answered Jesus's question - and spoke that Jesus was Christ - and Jesus told Peter how he was blessed to know that and that upon that rock he would build his church!
As for the Beads - who cares about many religious cultures using beads as a tool - it is not in the Torah, nor in the New Testament. Therefore why on Earth pervert Gods word ?
As for translation from the Latin - I suggest you look to the fact that the New Testament was most probably written in Greek or Hebrew and not Latin calls to question who translated the original texts and into what language and further who translated those. Should we ascribe it to be atheistic in nature - if an atheist scholar had translated the text - would you call that absurd - yet you declare because a man who translated something was of a particular faith; some how quantifies it as affirming your religion.

Now for John. Mary was Blessed among women - but not to be worshipped. Peter was Blessed but not to be Worshipped. John the Baptist was Blessed - Among them that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist. [Jesus himself spoke that ] So where does Mary fit in that picture. She is still Blessed - but so are lots of people by the Grace and Power and Kindness of God.
Many people are Blessed - Blessed are they that hear the word of God and Keep it - but they are not revered to be worshipped. Jesus himself said why call him good - there is none good but one and that is God! The world has been Blessed by the Coming of the Lord.

Why is it you don't talk about John the Baptist in the same light - after all JESUS HIMSELF said among those born of Women - not risen a Greater than John the Baptist - amazing Jesus said that. Think Jesus did not like his Mother or had a family issue there ?? I would say not!
12/21/2009 1:37:35 PM
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Ann Jean
Merry Christmas to you John, Ken and Fr. Barron, and thank you Father for this forum.

Ken your fixation on this meatless Friday thing is leading me to believe that you may be a fallen away Catholic yourself. It’s a typical argument used to justify their rebellion against the Church. You’re not getting the concept of Dogma vs discipline as it pertains to Church authority. Look it up,. I have pointed out the Scripture passages that support this authority but you choose not to accept it. You follow the teaching of strange doctrines that arbitrarily take some portions of Scripture literally and out of context while rejecting others.

Our Lord gave authority to the Church and it has remained as promised for almost 2,000 years. Look at the different denominations and cults there are today. There is everything from snake handlers to the church of “I’m ok, you’re ok, Jesus only wants you to be happy.” And all of it based on their particular interpretation of Scripture. It is your confidence in the Holy Spirit’s guidance of those early scribes in the Church who faithfully copied and translated those early texts for hundreds of years, that permits you to believe in the truth of Scripture today. When do you think the Holy Spirit withdrew it’s guidance in contradiction of Jesus’ promise that the gates of hell would not prevail?

Catholics do not worship Mary or the saints, we venerate them. And Mary especially, as the mother of God. It was at her request that Jesus performed his first public miracle even though it was before the time he planned on revealing himself. And his last command as he was dying on the cross to give her to us as our mother and us to her.

And re the rosary, look up tzitzit as referenced in Numbers 15:37-41. No, it’s not the same as the Catholic rosary or even a precursor, but knots on a cord and beads on a string as a tool for prayer and remembering are very similar concepts and neither is displeasing to God.
12/21/2009 9:55:57 PM
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John
Ken
Ken you know very well that the Catholic Church does not "worship" Mary any more than we worship Peter or John the Baptist. All were creatures just like you and me - but they were very special creatures.

And you know that Catholics and Protestants all love John the Baptist and acknowledge his role from the time he first lept in the womb of Elizabeth. We have never failed to honor his sacrifices or how much Jesus loved him. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard his words to Jesus recited over the years. And just last Sunday I went to mass at Saint John the Baptist church.

And the Catholic Church has always loved Peter. How could that ever be doubted? Until recently he has been mostly ignored by Protestants (probably because of his connection with the Catholic Church.)

But what shocks and saddens me most is how Protestants have chosen to make the Blessed Virgin Mary a "line in the sand." Luther remained devoted to Mary but those that followed him needed something more tangible for their violent movement and our Lady was, in modern terms, “thrown under the bus” and they have never looked back.

By collectively turning their backs on the Blessed Mary they shored up their other heretical views and turned Mary from a loving mother that the Father had selected and spoke to through his messenger, to a mere breeding vessel.

In every aspect she was downgraded by the Protestants and instead became symbolic of what was wrong with the Catholic Church even if it went against the belief of the earliest Christians, the words of the Father and Jesus, and being descended upon by the Holy Spirit at the Annunciation and again at Pentecost. Ken you know all of this as well.

This false image on Mary has now become lore in the Protestant churches.

Over and over such lies have been repelled but they now have a life of their own, a purpose. Just a few days ago I received a Christmas card from a fundamentalist that includes the verse from Luke with the word “firstborn.” A week earlier I heard that same isolated verse recited at the show by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Why? To cast doubt on her and the Catholic Church.

Neither mentioned Saint Jerome’s Biblical explanation of what was meant by “firstborn.”
And as you should know, Saint Jerome, in the fourth century, gave us the Latin Vulgate from which your KJV was translated.

Just the mention of Mary’s name makes most Protestants look like a deer in the headlights or as one national TV evangelists put it, “we just don't know what to do with her.”

Just love her. It's that simple or is it? How much more would she need on her resume to deserve your love?

The truth is if you start loving Mary and acknowledging her place in our faith your greatest argument against “coming home” to the Catholic Church evaporates.

John
12/22/2009 10:23:53 AM
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John
To All,
If I may. I'm asking all Protestants and Catholics alike put aside our differences and all join in on the fight to end this holocaust that has taken the "unrepeatable" lives of fifty million babies (in the US alone) since Roe v Wade.

I believe "Priests for Life" (PriestsforLife.org) and its leader Father Pavone, who to me is the "tip of the spear", is our best hope.

I also believe there will be some Earth shaking going on this upcoming year and your support is desperately needed now.

John
12/22/2009 11:19:31 AM
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Ken
As for the bible originating from the translation of the Latin Vulgate - I suggest you look to the fact the Textus Receptus was used in the King James Version of the Bible and not the Latin Vulgate.
Here are many points:
Call no man on earth Father.
You goto a priest and "confess" and he somehow declares you forgiven.
This is not biblical.
1, who is that priest ?
2, Where does it say confess your sins to a man.
3, Meatless Fridays or as the Wise and Lawful Authority had found that the earlier Wise and Lawful were not so wise and decided to change it to just Friday at lent.
4. Forbidding to Marry - it is commonly known that the Church has Priests and Nuns - are not allowed to marry; or is it strongly suggested they make an oath not to marry in order to be a priest or a nun (so somehow that makes it a "choice") .
Ann Jean can declare it is not a requirement but in fact it is. They have married priests from other denominations because of a "Rule Change" in 1980 for those who were already married and CAME from another faith (so the Wise Authority before was not so wise and those in 1980 were more wise - the pope must also approve it. Latin American Churches are stuanchly against married priests and nuns, along with the vatican - strange since the claim about Peter a married man being Pope ..
5. Mary - everywhere you hear about Mary - and "love mary" - I read Jesus as he said in Matthew 12:50, "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."
6: Papal Infallibility - you must believe that in order to be a Catholic, it is part of the articles of your faith. [added in late 1800's] - if that were the case then why have they each contradicted each other and changed rules.
7: The Pope is not the Vicar of Christ. There is no evidence of Peter forming a church or heading a church in Rome. In Case you believe Peter to be the first pope:
If you believe that line that Jesus referred to Peter as the Rock and not to Christ as the Rock - then you need to throw out all of Pauls writings and even Peter mentioning Pauls writings. Paul was not under the Authority of Peter but under Christ - Rebuke not an elder - yet Paul Rebuked Peter - because he did err..Galatians 2:11 - The Authority here went to Paul!
Out goes the notion of papal Infallibility - if you believe Peter to have ever been Pope! Then also so does the notion that Jesus appointed Peter as the head - for when is the head instructed of the body?
8: As for "Saints" - all true Children of God are saints. I know you look to think that they must perform some miracle. Yet that is not Biblical and as a matter of fact none declare or would even have any one declare that somehow by their own hand was any miracle done, nor would they desire that any try to promote that idea!!

Could it be more Clear:
Peter was not a pope, because he was rebuked of Paul , Paul showed authority over him in "rebuking an elder" . This shows Peter was fallable and therefore papal infallability upon which you are required to accept as part of your faith makes him not suitable - a great contradiction. Is there special dispensation for that? Or is it that now they are infallable and before they were fallable ?
12/24/2009 5:20:48 AM
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John
Ken,

It saddens me that your hatred for the Catholic Church far exceeds any love for the unborn(or any outrage at the present holocaust).

John
12/28/2009 12:47:56 AM
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Ken
John you mistake using the word hatred. Just because someone points out hypocrisies or even if they choose to state a differing view than your own does not translate into hate. If that were the case I would think that you and all catholics hate anyone and everyone who is not a catholic - because you vehemently adhere to declare catholicism as somehow Gods Plan - even with all of the Hypocrisies and paganistic rituals mixed in.

As for judging my love for the unborn based upon my pointing out hypocrisies of the catholic church seems a stretch. Like judging you to be unfaithful to your wife because you pointed out that someone said a car did not really belong to a person but was a rental.
I can tell you this - if people would REALLY get right with God - we wouldn't have the conversation about the unborn. I am not talking about showing up in a church building and claiming that somehow you are living right by saying a few hail marys or praying a few beads, I am talking about getting cleaned up on the inside and not letting sin reign in the mortal body.

So you have one thing over on those that do these things and you are "outraged" - I would that people would be outraged about giving to those who are unwilling to help themselves (I am not talking about people who have a real need - just those who would take advantage of the sytems designed to help those really in need) I am surprised that there is no outrage for those who STEAL the love of many by standing on a street corner with a sign that says hungry will work for food - and they are NOT and NEITHER will they work. I am surprised we do not get outraged at all of that Pronographic material on store shelves and the internet fueling every lust. The list goes on. Pick more than one sin to be outraged by - how about lying to your wife or lying to another person.. the list goes on.
12/28/2009 12:53:54 PM
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Ann Jean
Greetings John on this the Feast of the Holy Innocents, the first martyrs for Christ. But we needn’t think of them with sadness, for they now have the eternal vision of God’s wondrous face. And so too the millions of innocents who have been slaughtered by abortion. The little ones souls are instantly taken up to Heaven forever out of the reach of the evil one. The true horror of abortion is the destruction of the souls of the women and men who commit or permit this horrendous crime and the effects this evil has on them the rest of the human race.
I don’t recall reading anything in these posts that would lead you to believe that Ken is indifferent to the great holocaust of abortion. For all we know he could be offering sidewalk counseling in front of an abortion mill every weekend or he could be a great prayer warrior for the cause of life. But he hasn’t started this discussion to talk about abortion. Nor do I get the impression that he “hates” the Church. Rather I believe he knows very little truth about the Church and what she teaches. He knows the standard cliche arguments, attacks and accusations.

Ken, “Call no man Father” (the words “on earth” are not part of this phrase in Scripture) then how do you refer to your male parent? Do the majority of Christians then disobey the Lord and teach their own children disobedience also? Later in the same passage Jesus tells us to call no one teacher. So how do we refer to our teachers and doctors (means the same as teacher)? What about the passage where Jesus tells us to pluck out our eyes or chop of our hands if they tempt us to sin. Is he commanding us to mutilate our bodies rather than sin, I don’t see many one eyed, one handed Christians walking around. Jesus is using hyperbole to get his point across. Even St Paul says “...I became your Father in Christ Jesus through the Gospel” and so too the Catholic priests we call Father.

Yes, priests and nuns do make their choice and they are bound by it when they take the vow of celibacy. Your argument is a bit like complaining that soldiers don’t have a choice where they are deployed once they have enlisted. No,the Church does not permit vows made before God to be taken lightly. (that would be more suitable in the church of “I’m ok you’re ok”) I don’t even care where you got the year 1980 from. Married men as priests have always been the norm in the Eastern Rite church, but in neither the Eastern or Western rites is it permitted for priests to marry. But you don’t seem be able to grasp the difference between Doctrine and discipline.

Jesus gave his authority to Peter especially and the Apostles numerous times,including “he who hears you hears me” and after his resurrection, before he ascended to heaven he repeated his command to Peter to feed his sheep 3 times. And he breathed his spirit on the apostles and said whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose you retain are retained.

Infallible does not mean impeccable or inerrant. It pertains to the Popes authority when he teaches Church doctrine, he cannot teach error. But it does not mean that he cannot make a mistake or commit sin as a man. Even Jesus instructed the Apostles to do and observe all that the Pharisees taught when they (the Pharisees)sat in the chair of Moses, this continues with the chair of Peter. And this Infallibility also belongs to the bishops when they teach in accord with Church Doctrine. Paul was right in correcting Peter for his actions, but it was not a correction of what he taught. You seem to believe that it is the written word that has this Infallibility, but who can discern their meaning unless they are taught as was the Ethiopian by Phillip one of the original Bishops of the Church. Christ ordained that his Church be built of living men empowered with the Holy Spirit to discern the truth.
Now on to Textus Receptus, I’m not going to pretend that I am scholar, but I did quite a bit of reading over the weekend to pick up a few facts and a few divergent opinions from NON Catholic sources. And perhaps I have some of this wrong, but there seems to be a lot of bickering out there when it comes to the Bible Textus Receptus is not a single edition instead it is hundreds of similar but not identical editions. Erasmus, a Catholic Scholar published the edition of Textus Receptus that was used for the KJV. When he had difficulty distinguishing the text from commentary he consulted the Latin Vulgate, and for some portions he translated the Latin Vulgate back into Greek to complete missing text. An interesting quote I found was, it has been “conceded by re*****ble scholars that Textus Receptus in all it’s various forms has no textual authority whatsoever.” I won’t even get into the conflicting opinions of the KGV itself. I have no problem with any of this, my authority is the teaching of the Church but if my sole authority was the written word that has come down to us through the ages, I would feel there was a big problem here. I would either have to trust someone who I believed had a lot of knowledge of biblical languages, history and writings and understood the variances or I would have to embark on what would be an impossible task of searching through the earliest manuscripts in their original Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek lanquages (all dead languages by the way, I think they are very hard even for the most educated to study) And in order to really be sure, I would have to have access to all the early writings of the church in order to discern for myself, with the help of the Holy Spirit of course, what are truly the inspired writings rather than just accepting what has been handed down to us by the Catholic Church. No, I am thankful for the wise and lawful authority of the Catholic Church given to us by Christ himself. So I am free to spend my time prayerfully reading Scripture, partaking of the Sacraments and growing in my relationship with Christ and those around me.

Yes, we are all called to be saints, miracles are not required.

And why should you have a problem with the Mother of God, the Ark of the Covenant. The Woman clothed with the Sun. Aren’t all men bound to honor their mother? She doesn’t compete with Christ, she brought him to us in the flesh 2000 years ago, she suffered with him on the cross as only a mother can. She continues to bring us to him. Do you think the Lord resents his Mother? What were her words at the wedding feast of Cana- “Do whatever he tells you”
12/28/2009 10:26:54 PM
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Ken
In this scripture
1 Corinthians 4:15, "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."
No where does Paul declare himself to be Father : if you read for what it says and not for what you want it to say - that colon is there in the grammar for a reason.
Have you not read Pauls epistle to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 4:5-6, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

InFallable:" It pertains to the Popes authority when he teaches Church doctrine, he cannot teach error. "
Yet Peter did teach error, (for he was to be blamed) and thus was rebuked of Paul. Or suppose you that Paul declared this
Galatians 2:11ish, "...why do you compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? " If he compelled them was he not "instructing" them to do it?
Further again if Peter was Pope - Paul Instructed Peter not the other way around. Now if the Pope declares himself to be "Father and Instructor how is it then that Paul Instructed Peter - did Paul beget Peter in the Gospel was Paul "father" of Peter in the gospel?

The Latin Vulgate was proven to be full of so many translation errors it was considered very poor - but the greek that was done beside it was considered to be very good.
"Earliest Manuscripts" These are earliest known manuscripts and does not mean they matched the Original nor does it mean accurate. It just means earliest known.

As for the did Jesus Resent his Mother ? I asked the same question of John when Jesus said in Matthew 12:50, "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." HIS WORDS not mine - He never promoted Mary to be anything other than who she was a child of God, not to be worshipped , or revered or above any. She was Blessed among women but not to be served, worshipped or put on a pedestal above or beside any.

As for Mary somehow being the Ark of the Covenant - I have no idea what you base that on certainly not scripture.
You said "She continues to bring us to him. "
JESUS said
John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
So I do not know where you get the She brings us to him except you are not hearing the Spirit and the Voice of God.. She brings nobody, there is only one mediator between God and Man the man Christ Jesus. There is none other name given among men whereby we must be saved.

"Do whatever he tells you" - of course out of context but good point to do whatever Jesus tells us ... but here is a scripture for you: In Luke 17:12-16, Jesus told the Lepers to go show themselves to the Priests And as they went, they were cleansed. And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God. Jesus said were not 10 sent and where are the other 9 ???

Did he do what Jesus Instructed him to do ???


I do answer your questions but I find it amazing that as yet you have not lifted to answer any one of mine. Could it be that you are not hearing and that your eyes are shut lest you should dig in the word and be disappointed. So before you ask me anymore questions , I ask you to answer mine.
12/29/2009 2:34:07 PM
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Ken
You declare:
"Married men as priests have always been the norm in the Eastern Rite church, but in neither the Eastern or Western rites is it permitted for priests to marry"

Here you state exactly in neither the eastern or western rites is it permitted for priests to marry. The statement is Clear "they are not permitted to marry". That means they are forbidden to marry - not permitted means it is forbidden. This is not "discipline" this is Church Doctrine laid upon the backs of men - it is not Biblical to require such a constraint. In regards to them choosing to be "disciplined" to do this: they are choosing to follow an errant doctrine that has no biblical basis. Shall I say to serve God as a Deacon must give a weekly offering of $5 - and those who are disciplined and choose to serve in that roll it makes it right ? Can you now distinguish the difference between discipline, doctrine and scripture. The rules and traditions of man should never conflict, transgress, add to or take away from Gods word.
12/29/2009 11:16:12 PM
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John
Ann Jean,
You've done a remarkable job of defending the faith and maintaining your cool and it's been a pleasure reading you words. I wish you well and would love to know more about you.

By now you may be able to see why I compared what I believe is Ken's hatred for the Catholic Church to his lack of love for the unborn (shown when he conveniently ignored my request that we all set aside our differences and join in the fight against abortion. He chose instead to continue his attack on the Church and then equated abortion to things like and in his own words,"I would that people would be outraged about giving to those who are unwilling to help themselves (I am not talking about people who have a real need - just those who would take advantage of the sytems designed to help those really in need) I am surprised that there is no outrage for those who STEAL the love of many by standing on a street corner with a sign that says hungry will work for food - and they are NOT and NEITHER will they work. I am surprised we do not get outraged at all of that Pronographic material on store shelves and the internet fueling every lust. The list goes on. Pick more than one sin to be outraged by - how about lying to your wife or lying to another person.. the list goes on."

Such hatred is beyond me and the teachings of Jesus.

Ken fights just to fight and frankly make no sense to me except to confirm my original assessment that he hates the Catholic Church and his opinions are the same tired old anti-cathoilic heretical views that the Church has had to endure for centuries.

I wish you well Ken but I can think od nothing more to say that will help you.
12/30/2009 10:00:23 AM
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Ken
John
Perhaps this will help you; you have picked one sin among many to be outraged by perhaps because you do not fall into that category of a killer of the unborn. Many people do exactly this and say I don't do that so I am good to go and now let me condemn others. It is time to be outraged about all sin and getting rid of it in our lives - that sin be exceedingly sinful in our eyes, that we might make every effort to get the sin out of our lives. Then it is much easier to help someone else that is not as "HOLY" as we are. And if we reach that place - I am sure we will not be "looking" down on people. I am not a Woman, never been pregnant, never been raped and impregnated and I set my goal to be the best christian I can be, and I am not out to condemn but to save that which is lost. I can understand when people are "scientifically" enlightened how they can be swayed either way; however a person with out Christ Jesus is easily persuaded by arguments of "science" and not persuaded on righteousness and therefore if the soul can be turned to christ alot more can be done.

So do you think it is hatred to point out that there are other sins that are in the eyes of God STILL SIN - I know you rate them in the Catholic Church but here is a news flash - if you transgress one part you have transgressed the whole part - Love your neigbour as yourself.

As for your comment: Let us join together and do this or that.
1: Complete misdirection from the point of the comments , Q and A .
People do this when they have no answers or are determined to believe what they want to believe - essentially they have stopped up their ears from hearing.
2: each one has to do what they believe they are led of God to do - not all people are called to the same ministry or the same roles. Not everyone is a hand or a foot, or what not.
12/31/2009 12:21:07 AM
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John
Ken,
No I wasn't trying to misdirect you, just the opposite.

If you look at the time stamps on my posts you will see the post on the 22nd were back to back. The one to you was at 10:23 on 10/22 and the post "To All" was at 11:31 on 10/22.

Regarding my post "To All" I wanted to make everyone that was following the discussion aware of the role of Priestsforlife.org in ending abortion, a plug if you like, and was frankly surpised that no one, including yourself, expressed their mutual desire to end abortion.

Up until then I thought most of the non-Catholic Christians who were observing were either traditional Protestants or Fundamentalists.

However your recent post on 12/31 at 12:21 AM makes me wonder if what your faith is. You mentioned you were a "christian" with a small c, I assume a typo, but not the denomination or the name of your church ie. Lutheran, Baptist etc. or possibly even LDS

If you are non-denominational perhaps you can tell us the denomination of your parents.

I can't possibly know what all church communities teach when it comes to abortion but I thought most traditional Protestant denominations and Fundamentalists were in close agreement with the Catholic Church when it came to the unborn.

Can you tell us your denomination and what does your church teach on abortion?
1/1/2010 5:11:08 PM
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Ann Jean
Hi Ken, Happy New Year, I had to laugh when I read the last paragraph of your first response above. How tempted I have been to refer to the same scripture verse in response to you. I have tried to answer your questions you don’t find my answers acceptable, well I never claimed to be a Scripture scholar or theologian. Yet for many of my questions you made no attempt to answer; including the ones about intercessory prayer, call no man father/teacher, and the plucking out your eye,cutting off your hand thing. I pointed you to scripture that supports the authority of the Catholic church and your response has been- that’s not what it means- and then you go on to quote scripture against scripture.

You are asking me to prove, through scripture, that scripture is not the sole authority, I don’t have to. But the very writings you are trying to make your case with were given to you by the Catholic Church (regardless of what text they were translated from, the cannon is the same). Do you ever wonder why, if Scripture proves that the Church is false, these passages weren’t removed rather than being handed down for centuries? You haven’t tipped your hand to what you do believe, other than scripture alone, but unless you subscribe to the beliefs of some of the stranger sects, you also believe in certain Doctrines that were defined and defended by the Catholic Church such as the Trinity and nature of Christ.

If you like I can post some websites and authors who will give you a real challenge to your belief in scripture alone.

May the peace of Christ be with you,
Ann Jean
1/1/2010 8:24:10 PM
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Ann Jean
Hi John, Happy New Year to you also, I would like to hear the story of your faith journey and how you came to be a devoted child of Mary and defender of the unborn.

I had the great blessing of a strong but gentle father who loved the Church, was very devoted to the Blessed Mother and immersed himself in the Word of God, through Scripture, spiritual books and most importantly, frequent receception of the Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist. You could say there was nothing extraordinary about him by worldly standards, except perhaps his personal integrity, but people who knew him, regardless of their own beliefs or even lack of belief, saw the specialness in him. He emanated the love of Christ in all he did. We became close companions in my adult life. He died 10 years ago.

I have, for the most part been a practicing Catholic, but I have to admit that I have generally been on the warmer side of tepid. In the past 2 years I began to try and emulate my father’s example in prayer and studying the Word. I also have the good fortune of working near a Church that offers Mass during the lunch hour. The Lord has responded to my meager efforts most generously, doesn’t He always.

I am registered on the forum at catholic.com under the name, ann chicago. It’s well moderated and if you are registered there yourself, you can send me a message.

In Christ,
Ann Jean
1/1/2010 10:08:27 PM
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John
Ken,
While I'm waiting for my posting that asks you to identify your specific faith and faith history to be approved and posted I wonder if you are involved with the Grace Community Fellowship that is noted for teaching that Roman Catholicism is "a false religion" and if so why didn't you identify yourself right up front? Isn't that a sin of ommission?
1/2/2010 11:27:17 AM
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John
Ann
That was quite a loving tribute to your father (and his daughter as well) and I like your description of the "warmer side of tepid."

Annie, I'm a cradle to grave Catholic that was raised in an Irish/Italian neighborhood in the south end of Hartford, CT and even though I moved to CO & WY in the 70's, I still cherish that church and at Christmas time, send gifts for the poor children.

Admittedly I was a Christmas/Easter Catholic (and a cafeteria Catholic at times) for years, but always a Catholic, but more than a decade ago I knew it was time to get back to the Church and I've never looked back since.

For much of my life I believed in live and let live when it came to the different faiths but things changed when the TV evangelists and fundamentalists arrived.

Their attacks on the Church and the failed attempts by personal acquaintances to convert me from it, made me a better Catholic. At first their script was to ask me if I was "saved" and later if I was "born again" (not knowing the true meaning of either) and they now just identify themselves as Christians (baiting me to reply that I am a Catholic-Christian, which of course implies that the Catholic Church is not, but I don't fall for such disingenuous tricks and quickly ask them their faith history).

That usually takes them off their stride as they try to come up with an answer. Game playing and lying, in any hue, especially by omission, does not pass muster with me.

I've learned that most fundamentalists have a history of church hopping and are completely obsessed with attacking and criticizing Catholicism and not at all interested in the truth, so now I just do as Jesus instructed. I plant a seed, and when necessary, shake the dust off my sandals.

My main interest is and always has been in defending the honor of Our Lady and the lives of the unborn. (Having to do so with those that call themselves Christians baffles me completely.)

Everyday, I thank God for my faith, for the dedication of His priests and religious, and for my paisan, Mother Angelica, and EWTN.
1/4/2010 10:25:19 PM
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Ann Jean
I saw Mother Angelica years ago on tv, but I haven't had cable for quite a few years. I do listen to Fr. Corapi on the radio, he has a great respect for her. I'm sure you've heard him also.

It feels like the Holy Spirit is stirring up the Church and we definitely need stirring up. The most scandalous proponents of abortion are the Catholic politicians, that's what dismays me. Bible believing Christians are more in line with the Church on this and other moral issues than many "educated" Catholics.

Cultural Catholics, if they are still practicing their Faith, seem to take a lot of it for granted Fundamentalist Christians put most Catholics to shame with their knowledge and understanding of Scripture. and maybe in our ignorance we're easy targets for conversion away from what they truly believe is a false church. I welcome the challenge, it prompts me to search deeper into Scripture and the history and teachings of the Catholic Church and the more I study the more I realize the beauty and wisdom of this great gift the Lord gave us when he established his Church. I try to hold the assumption that other Christians are sincere in their beliefs and love for Christ,

The attack on the Church and Christianity does seem to have escalated both within and without we shouldn't be fighting among ourselves. Our best weapon is prayer and our witness to others in how we live our lives.

As St. Francis said, Preach the Gospel always and sometimes use words.
1/6/2010 6:53:20 PM
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Ken
I have always referred to myself as "Christian" - however that term I believe is higher than what many would place it as. For to be a Christian is to be like Christ - so I think myself to not have attained but to be pressing on toward the mark of the high calling of Christ.

The bible says we are living epistles read of all men. Follow after Holiness with out which no man shall see God.
Sincerity is a good thing and many serve their faiths and beliefs in sincerity - but God never asked any to server their faith and belief - he asked that they serve him. That is why I speak on it in this way, pray to know him as he wants to be known and to serve him as he wants to be served not as I might believe or have believed but as in the truth in the Gospel of Christ. Pray to be able to receive it, when the Lord is speaking to us, and grant us to be able to bear whatever the burden and whatever the cost.

BTW - there is no REAL christian that is for abortion, no REAL christian that is for false witness, adultery, cruelty, homosexuality, lasciviousness, murder and any other such sins. To be otherwise one would just simply be without understanding.

No matter what religion a person is - if they do not line up with what GOD said and what he wanted they will be lost , no matter how sincere [It is his Heaven and his rules].
The Pharisees were sincere - Nicodemus being one and the Apostle Paul - before Jesus stopped him was not only sincere but zealous thinking he was doing right in the sight of God, ignorantly (Pauls Words) but he was doing it sincerely and zealously (Pauls Words) too.
How does God see us ? What is Gods way ? Lord help us to receive it.
1/7/2010 12:01:15 PM
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John
Ann Jean,
As you know, the Catholic Church is adamant about the protecting the sanctity of life and that abortion is NON-NEGOTIABLE, whereas my earlier assumption that most traditional Protestant denominations were pro-life was apparently dated, as Protestant denominations like the Presbyterians (USA) is officially pro-choice, the United Church of Christ is radically pro-choice and supports legalization of partial-birth abortions, the
United Methodist are Pro-Choice and supports legalization of partial-birth abortions, and Episcopal is officially pro-choice and supports radical pro-choice organizations.

Obama is openly the MOST pro-abortion President we've ever had and has "suspiciously" surrounded himself with high profile pro-abortion Catholics that are not following Church teaching and some are not allowed to receive the Holy Eucharist, while other have been warned.

It appears to me that Obama, who many believe is a modern narcissist, is doing his best to divide our Church along the lines of abortion - but I pray he will fail miserably.

Historically we hear about Hitler but rarely hear about Catholic Bishop Galen who, in 1941, at his own personal risk, led an uprising that forced Hitler to end his "Action T4 Program" that was killing the physically and mentally disabled. (Two of Galen’s followers were beheaded for passing out copies of his homily.)

The Church has also taught that those who knowingly vote for politicians that provide support for legalized abortion are themselves culpable. Getting that word out has been the problem.

Thankfully the Southern Baptists are in line with the Catholic Church as are many individual fundamentalists but fundamentalists have no formal structure to be able to count on.

As yet Ken has not told us what religious community he belongs to or their official stance on abortion.

Father Pacwa, on EWTN, does not mix words when it comes to abortion and the fallen Catholic politicians that support legalized abortion and Father Pavone of Priests for Life, also on EWTN, is determined to end this holocaust.

And when it comes to abortion, I'm sure even St. Francis would shout out loudly against this offense aginst God.
1/7/2010 12:54:30 PM
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Ken
John - I have declared to you many times my faith and the stance:
Christian - as I have spoken for many many many many many years. If your stuck on "belonging" to some affiliation - I can not classify myself that way nor do I.
There are many beliefs in many denominations that are not biblically correct. The Churches you point out - I have issue with as well. The Lutheran Church you left out..and should have included.

My wife and I attend her church(Her native language is spanish) , on sin they believe we should put sin out of our lives - nothing is negotiable, sin is sin. On doctrines they differ from the ministry the Lord has put me in - and generally I venture most churches do. [My wife attends in my ministry as well.]
Many Churches get wrapped up in a myriad of things, traditions of men, fads, games, gimmicks and the list goes on; none of those things has any place in the Church. I am not in with the Charismatic movement either.
We do not focus on one or two sins (Abort/Homosex) but all sins. We do not focus on what others do - we focus on what and how we live first - that way we might convince the "gainsayer" - If we are living Godly - the Ungodly will know it, and the words with which we declare and speak of righteousness they will know it. There will be two choices for them to deny and fall into the hands of the Living God, or to accept and repent and fall into the arms of the Loving God.
Paul a man who had put letters seeking to put to death Christians - God saved.

John - you mean to tell me in Catholicism - you have negotiable sins ?
No sin is negotiable in the eyes of God.
1/7/2010 2:41:18 PM
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John
Ken,
Quit preaching long enough to be open and honest?

Is it so hard for you to tell us your faith history?

Is it so hard for you to describe the faith of your parents and the religious communities you have traveled through (and now belong to).

Why are you so evasive?

I have to tell you I have more respect for the little girl at Columbine who died because she refused to deny her faith, or the little Ahmish girl that said "shoot me first" than someone like you that cannot answer the simplest of questions.

What are you afraid of?
1/7/2010 9:45:10 PM
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John
Ken,
I want to appologize to you for my last post of 1/7/2010 9:45 as I feel I went to far especially when I compared you to those two little girls.

Again I wish you well.
1/8/2010 6:23:44 PM
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John
Hi Ann Jean,
As yet I have not received an email from Catholic.com. When I do I'll contact you.
John
1/8/2010 6:31:47 PM
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Ken
John I know that you struggle with the concept "Christian". I am not afraid of anything you might say or ask.
I have answered you and you have not heard me - just because you can not comprehend an answer does not make it a problem of mine nor does it make me evasive.

Lets start out this way.
Moses by faith was persauded that the reproach of christ was greater riches than the pleasures of sin for a season. [His faith history in case you are wondering was that of the Pharoahs - after all he was a newborn in the water found of Pharoahs daughter..]
By faith Abraham had respect unto the promises of God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [his faith history as you call it is not told unto us.]

By faith I chose to become a christian. That is the Religious community I belong to.
Why is that concept so hard for you ?

What my parents believed and what they did or did not do has nothing to do with my faith. It would not make a difference to the truth of Gods word if they were Budhist, or otherwise.

I never knew what faith either of them were - as neither attended services while I grew up. Although 3 of my much older brothers were sent to a Catholic school before I was born - (The oldest was over 18 with the other two close behind when I was born so I can't say much on that.) None of those three want anything to do with God or the things of God.

When I was growing up neither my dad nor my mom attended church as far as I remember (except maybe 1 or 2 months when I was four) but I do know that my dad was well read in the Bible - he had read it several times although I never saw him read it.
But that makes no difference to me - you can't be saved by what your parents know or believe. Neither do their teachings make a difference if what is taught does not line up with what God says.

I have attended 4 different churches on a regular basis, believe what you want to believe on this.

Since each of my Jobs required travel - I did not decide to avoid church - I went to church in whatever city I was sent; trusting in God that he was was my teacher, not the church or the minister - I know that concept is hard for you.

I have nothing against a church hopper as you clearly do - I believe the Bible is clear people need to go where they feel God is leading them - and if it isn't in the church they are in then they need to get up and go where they believe God would have them. If they are in a church of hypocrisy then they should get up and go to one that is moving in the right direction and doing something about it. They must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling (or have you not read that?). God is in charge.

As for you respecting me - I seek not any mans respect - only the honour that comes from God. Being obedient to his will.

Do you feel that Jesus was not honourable when he did not allow himself to be stoned for the Gospel he preached: John 8:59, "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

Does that help you any - that is my history. So now that you know my history because you desire to make a personal attack on me; bring it on. I would imagine that is what you need to do since you have no scriptural foundation to stand on.

BTW: to answer your question about Grace Fellowship - I never heard of them - but I think I will look them up on the net now and take a look just to see what they do teach.
1/9/2010 4:39:55 AM
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John
Ken,
I'm not out to get you, I'm just defending my Church.

It helps to know someone's faith history as different denominations have different points of view.

Considering what I now know about your older brothers, that all attended Catholic school, it seems reasonable that your parents would also have you Christened into the Catholic Church as well, and then at age seven or eight, have you receive First Communion, thus helping to explain why you remember your parents attending Church during that period when you were very young.

(It's even possible that your mother was Catholic and father a Protestant like my family and that would fit your memory as well.)

Confirmation on the other hand occurs between ages fifteen and eighteen and it seems resonable that you were not Confirmed for one reason or another.

If so you were not alone as I've seen notices in the church bulletin for classes for those adults that had not been Confirmed.

I doubt if your brothers would remember such things but the local parish where you grew up might have such records.

Best wishes and my peace be with you.

John
1/11/2010 10:16:42 PM
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Bill
When Christ instituted the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper, He did not say to do it as a simply memory...He did say This is My Body and This is My Blood. It seems the Catholic Church is the only church to accept the Bible in full truth. Most fundamentalist groups only take the passages they can live by. You have to learn not to take every statement in the bible literally, for if we did, then as Paul instructs...no one would marry. And when Christ said call no man father but your Father in Heaven, yet all cultures call the male parent by the term in their language which means Father. Christ did not even use the term Father which is not even Aramaic or Hebrew or Greek.
12/25/2010 11:13:12 PM
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Whisky and Gunpowder
I do not take all of the bible "literally", I take the bible and the Lord Jesus "SERIOUSLY". When Jesus says something, I take it seriously. When it is coroborated by other scripture I consider it "Gospel". The wine and the bread are symbols because Christ told us they were, see below. I am quoting scripture - the same scripture that is in the pews of the Catholic Church, what are you quoting or referring to???
The word 'remembrance' below is 'anamnēsis' which is to remember or reflect on something with affection.

Luk 22:19 "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."
1Cr 11:24 "And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Cr 11:25 "After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me."
12/27/2010 12:11:18 AM
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Ken
Bill -
I think there are some points I would like to share:
1: he did say this do in remembrance of me - and he did say it was his Body , but the other part was much different - Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.". his blood of the new testament .. take the WHOLE Truth. NO WHERE is it written this is my blood<period> but rather there is something more - not a period but something more. Read it again, in Mathew, in Mark, you can also see it in Luke.
Were you trying to be "Literal" there? What is your point ?
1 Corinthians 11:24-27, "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

You say Most fundamentalist groups - have you done a study and know all the groups out there and all of the scriptures to live by and have concluded that Most of them pick and choose?
Since that leaves some others that do not pick and choose , as most is not all but leaves others that in your opinion are striving to live by what they say.. and not picking and choosing? Then why not go to these that are striving to keep Gods word and do the same.
What passages do you pick and choose ? If you have them all - you really should be something to see or do you declare they are all there and you are not following them, if you are following them you should have the power. The bible says what it says and if I do not have them all under my belt yet - that is not an issue with what it says, but with what I do.

Paul said he would that all men were as he was and gave REASON for it - he did not say it was a commandment 1 Corinthians 7:1-9
1 Corinthians 7:7-9, "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
[And if we did literally as he instructs - in either case ?] Is it a sin, is it wrong ?

Jesus said call no man father on Earth, - if he did not use the Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic - how did they ever manage to translate them to the word Father as declared in:
Matthew 23:8-10, "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

You are entitled to believe what you want to believe:
12/27/2010 12:16:12 AM
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Ann Jean
Hi Whiskey and Gunpowder, I was looking through the list of posts here which began over a year and a half ago and I came across a curious contradiction from your very first post where you say "It is simply poor scholarship to declare that one should not take the word literally but I guess that's why I am an Evangelical instead of a Catholic." Yes, we Catholics take the Word of God very seriously also. No disagreement on that point.
The Scripture you quoted in your most recent post does nothing to prove that the Lord was speaking symbolically about His Body and Blood. Now the JWs have a way around this, they have simply changed the wording in their "translation" (version) of this passage to read "this means my body"
Why did some of His followers and disciples leave him in John chapter 6? They knew that His words were meant most literally, and they thought He was off His rocker. At that last Passover Supper, why not hold up a piece of lamb if it was only meant to be symbolic. Instead He also offers us His Precious Blood, blood had been forbidden to the Jews until then because it held the life of the sacrifice. He was offering us Himself as a complete living sacrifice. An Eternal Sacrifice, the Supper of the Lamb, which we enter into today every time we celebrate the Eucharist.
In natural biology, what we consume becomes a part of us. In the Holy Eucharist we become part of what we consume.

Greetings to you also, Ken and Bill.
<><
12/30/2010 7:16:04 PM
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Ann Jean
W&G There is a curious contradiction in your very first post on this site where you state 'It is simply poor scholarship to declare that one should not take the word literally but I guess that's why I am an Evangelical instead of a Catholic." Yes, Scripture is to be taken seriously, that is what the Church has always taught.
The verses that you and Ken quote re the the Real Presence refer back to what Jesus said in John 6 which caused so many of his disciples to leave him. His Apostles remained, not because they understood but because they believed in him. Jesus doesn’t then take them aside and explain nor is there an insertion of a clarification of what Jesus meant as there is when he talks of the living waters flowing from him.
Ken you left out the preceding phrase in 1 Cor, chpt 11 vs 23 “For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night he was betrayed took bread, ...”
Every hour of every day around the world people listen to those same words of Consecration and enter into the One True Living and Eternal Sacrifice of our Lord.
Just as many would not believe when Jesus spoke those words 2000 years ago, many will not believe today, they find it too hard.
1/15/2011 8:01:35 PM
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Ken
Ann Jean - I left out also verses 17-22 , and those should be taken into context for the sake of your point, not for the brevity of mine.

As for why some stayed and some went: Those that went said it was a HARD SAYING - maybe they understood or maybe they did not understand it.
Simon Peter on the other hand:
John 6:68-69, "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."
He was willing to pay the price for eternal life - the cost. The words Jesus spoke, Peter in my opinion Understood...Peter said you have the words to eternal life.. and we believe and Know for SURE that you are the christ. Not just that he believed in him, but also on the wrods which he spoke.
Jesus does explan it John 6:63

Literal or Symbolic - this sermon occurs before the Lords Supper.
Can you physically eat of his flesh? His body has not been found. Guess today we would all be out if it was that literal.
Will a piece of bread at communion save someone ?

Symbolic just read Jesus's words in John 6 - he explains it to all that hear him.

As for taking the word of God seriously - well I have not arrived at that point , for if I had I guess people would line the streets to get under my shadow to be healed.

For others who might be reading these comments.

John 1:14, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth."
1/17/2011 5:53:17 AM
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Ann Jean
Ken,
I Cor 11:17-22 points out that the Lord’s Supper is no ordinary meal and it shows that in the very beginning of the Church this sharing in the Lord’s Body & Blood was set apart from the common meal and the remainder of the chapter expounds on the Sacred and Holy nature of this spiritual Food.

Spiritual does not = symbolic.
John 6:63 explains that we cannot comprehend this Mystery in the flesh, according to the world. Rather it’s the Spirit that enables us to accept this teaching. The Apostles were open to the Spirit.

Are you really saying you don’t know where the body of Jesus is? Or are you deliberately being cynical?

When you say you have not arrived at the point of taking the Word of God seriously, it sounds like the paradox of Faith. The more I seek enlightenment from the Spirit , the more I realize how far I fall short. But I think you do wrong in singling out a specific Gift of the Spirit that you don’t have (read ICor chpts 12 & 13) Rather pray for the Spirit to show you the Gifts He has bestowed on you and how you can nurture and use them for the greater glory of God. Beware the traps of spiritual envy and pride, (and false humility which is just pride in disguise)

Sorry if it sounds like I presume to know you with these personal comments. I am speaking from my own experience.

Peace
<><
1/19/2011 6:47:27 PM
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Ken
John 6:63 - is not John speaking but rather Jesus.

True it is no Ordinary Meal; but read about where Jesus spoke of it, now ask symbolic or literal. The bread is his Body [Symbolic - since it is not Literally His Earthly Body].

As for the spiritual understanding of that symbolism -
Read John 6 again, Read John 1:14 -

As for "Are you really saying you don’t know where the body of Jesus is? Or are you deliberately being cynical? "

Jesus ascended to heaven - I do not know where his physical body is, to say I do would be speculation or lying. Do you?
Not being cynical - just truthful. YOu can not eat of his physical flesh if you do not know where the body is. He spoke figuratively about something spiritual - so we could understand it - well I say not we as in all people but all people whom the Lord reveals himself to.

As for taking the word of God seriously , are you perfect , do you follow it all ALWAYS.. then I ask - do you take it seriously ?? After all we can't take part of it and leave the other part out and still say we are serious about it can we ?

1: The Gifts of the spirit - I neither declared one that I had or did not have.
2: As for asking for God to show me which ones I have or do not have - WHY? They will be evident and make themselves manifest. Read MARK 16.

As for asking for spiritual gifts sure : biblical Paul says that we should desire them - and they are listed and the reasons for them too.

No I did not take it as if you presumed to know me - I just took it as you did not understand what I wrote.
1/20/2011 11:39:54 AM
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Isabelle
Please publish a book on this. So relevant and needed today.
3/23/2011 10:10:32 AM
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Ann Jean
Ken, you will ask God for spiritual gifts but you will not ask Him for the discernment to recognize them. A strange distinction.

You believe, among many other things, that God came into this world as a tiny baby, lived in obscurity for 30 years and as His first public miracle He changed water into wine. He fed thousands with a few loaves of bread, walked on water, cured a blind man with mud made from His spit and after a shameful and ignoble death He rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven. Yet you doubt that he can give us His living flesh to eat and His blood to drink.

Yes, I know that was Jesus speaking in Jn 6:63 and He was speaking to you, do not try to comprehend this mystery according to the flesh, that is the logic of the world. It is a supernatural reality that can only be comprehended in the Spiritual realm of God.

I disagree with your premise that to be serious about faith is to be perfect in faith. I am not a perfect mother, but I take my job as a mother very seriously. Yes, I fall far short of perfection in faith in many ways. But I know that when I stumble the Lord is there to pick me up and set my feet to the right path once more. I am not so foolish as to brush His hand away saying “let me prove how good I am, Lord, I can do this by myself”
3/28/2011 9:04:36 PM
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Ann Jean
Testing 1-2-3 I wonder if it takes more than a single post to alert the webmaster that there is a blog entry.
Anyway there is an interesting book out titled "Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist" by Brant Pitre.
4/1/2011 7:32:46 PM
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sherry
Thank you Fr. Barron for continually proclaiming the light and truth. Satan continues to roam the earth and patrol it especially on the internet. those voices of evil and hatred will continue, but somehow their message revolts those of good heart and intelligence, causing them to look more closely at the beautiful catholic church. Onward, Christian soldier! God Bless you.
6/15/2012 8:00:40 AM
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